EIII - PAL Chips on the CPU Board

[Rio]

Hello,

I got some issues with the PAL-Chips on the CPU-Board of a EIII Keyboard 4MB. During a repair session I realized that 3 of the 4 existing PAL-Chips on the CPU Board are forever gone. So I tried to find the neccessary programming informations, the JEDEC Files, that describe the internal behaviour of that Programmable Logic Devices and that are needed to create spare parts.

Unfortunately I only found one JEDEC File in this forum describing the internals of IC27. The others are missing.

- IC 27 (Type 16L8, Chip Select PAL internal number IP374) --> JEDEC available in this forum
- IC 10 (Type 16L8, Interrupt/Wait PAL with number IP373) --> JEDEC missing
- IC 11 (Type 16R4, UPRAM PAL with number IP365)           --> JEDEC missing
- IC 32 (Type 16R4, Serial PAL with number IP366)             --> JEDEC missing

After a little investigation and reading much threads in this forum I am still not sure about following :

- Are the used PAL Chips protected, or not ?

If they are not protected :
- They could be read out and copied. You only need a working Chip, a appropriate reader,
  and some knowledge about recompiling the PAL content for the spare IC.

If they are protected : 
- They could not be read out and copied directly.
- At my state of knowledge only a "brute-force approach" could work for IC27 and IC10   
  (because they are combinatorial). This takes much more time and need special equipment.
- At my state of knowledge IC11 and IC32 can't be copied in any way (because they are registered).

Hopefully I'm wrong, ...  and someone comes up with all the needed JEDEC files.
So I request the help and the knowledge of the community to clear this topic.

Thank you very much
Rio

[dr.c]

The PALS are NOT protected, you can read some coming from a machine, and program new ones !

[Rio]

Hello dr.c,

thank you very much for your statement. That are really good news. I tried to read out the PALs but was not successful with it. Maybe my equipment or my knowledge are not sufficient to handle this job.

Would you be so kind to read out the PALs IC-10,-11,-32 and post the binaries here in the Forum ?

This would be really helpful.

Thank you very much
Rio

 

[Rio]

Maybe he hasn't the time, or he encountered some problems.

I try the readout with the MiniPRO TL866A Programmer, and it wasn't successful. For me it looks like a readout from a protected PAL.

Is there anybody else who can help me with this issue ?

Thanks a lot
Rio

[dr.c]

Yeah, a damn blatter cancer. What a piss (the statement matches quite well, uh ?)
I am very well taken care of, don't worry. Lucky I am in France.

To get back to the topic, its just that I don't have the equipment, neither the PALS. Sorry about that...

[Deft]

This is quite old one, but I believe it still very relevant.

I`d just like to share my current experience:

I`ve just got this very nice and powerfull Elenec Beeprog2 programmer. It supports all the PAL`s for EIII.
https://www.elnec.com/en/products/universal-programmers/beeprog2/
The good news:
I was able to copy PALs from the Memory board, IC33, IC47 etc.
The bad news:
I was not able to copy any PALs from the CPU board. The programmer understands them, verifies ok, but when I`m trying to copy them - only zeros is in jedec buffer file. 
So my current learning that the CPU board PALs are protected and cant be copied (

[dvdborn]

Thanks for trying it out!

Let's hope someone finds a way to crack the protected PALs. Or even better, that someone still has the source code.

[Deft]

Thanks!

We are currently working on the way to "copy" the chip behavior to create a possible "clone" - will keep everyone updated.
 
I don`t believe that someone have the original source codes - they will definitely appear after all this years...
They were probably erased and shredded by Creative (((

Kir   

[Deft]

Here is an update of the crusade for the CPU board PALs jedec:

I`ve got an access for the EIII that was probably "serviced" by EMU. As you can see on the pic, the IC27 has a sticker with IP374B EMU on it, and guess what - I was able to copy a jedec from it, as you can see on second pic, so it was not "protected". So, there is hope, that it is a possibility to find serviced EIII with replaced ICs on CPU board that is also not protected, and we can copy the JEDEC.
PM me if you need a IC27 jedec and also if you have the same stickers on the CPU board pals on your EIII )

Regards,
Kirill

[Deft]

Another update - I was contacted by one guy on FB regarding my success on reading jedec from IC27, and he sent me a jedec for IC10 (Type 16L8, Interrupt/Wait PAL with number IP373) that he was able to read from his EIII.

It`s a great news, we now have only two PALs with missing jedec, hopefully not for long...

[Deft]

And one more update - I was able to copy an IC5 from the ADC board.

So, now we have:

1 Memory board: IC7, IC33, IC47, IC50.
2 CPU board: IC10, IC 27
3 ADC board: IC5

the missing ones is IC11, IC32 from CPU board, IC8 from memory board and IC4 from ADC board.

PM me if you can help with jedec from missing PALs.

All the best,
Kirill

[Synthesizer.repair]

the missing ones is IC11, IC32 from CPU board, IC8 from memory board and IC4 from ADC board.

PM me if you can help with jedec from missing PALs.

PMs seem to not be working.

Would be happy to help with the missing PALs, and also would host these files permanently on our servers for users to access at https://Synthesizer.repair

Please email me and we can coordinate our effort.   `ace.vanderhook@synthesizer.repair`

Thanks!

[Deft]

Hi, I wrote you an email and PM with no answer... (  Hope that you are oof and will respond soon.

All the best,
Kirill

[Thomas Flemming]

which person have the skills to burn the EIII  (all available JEDEC)  pal ic for the cpu main  board   or know somebody a tech nerd with these skills?!?!?

my eiii will not boot, and the cpu mainboard seems to be the prob,, i changed some ic, but no luck so the pal could be the issue
,psu is overhauld. voltages are in limit, rom ic changed too,

pls contact me, how ever  ,

I  WILL PAY FOR

thx a lot in advance

[Valmont]

Hey community!
I am looking absolutely everywhere for the Emulator III's IC27 (aka IP374 Chip Select) JEDEC file.
My Emu will never boot up again if I can't find this file.
Could anyone send me it, or just put it here? so others in despair like me may beneficiate from it...!

I really need your help, please consider this message 

Thank you a lot in advance,
Kind regards,
Valmont.